M4wd&Fabrications
Projects place => Tech => Topic started by: Harrison on August 26, 2019, 01:01:10 PM
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A lot of people on this board who have turned out one or more vehicles that function reliably and as intended, all of which have impressed me a lot over the years. I'm overdue for an all-tube thing, and am going to get two axles, a drivetrain, some tube and start at it this winter. Decided I do not want to buy a chassis, I want to work through everything myself from start to finish.
Looking for some general guidance on where to get started. Not so much looking for an an exact recipe, but more some guidelines and general approach. I see myself doing what Smike did with the main parts and a lawn chair and then not knowing where to really start after that. I have looked at builds similar to what I'm going for and have some general ideas. I see how well everything comes together in the end and can't tell if some of that is seat of the pants as it comes and how much of it is a well laid plan. I feel confident that once I get a foundation started I will hit my stride and move right along.
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accessibility and serviceability!
keep it simple- make your links all the same size, make your hydro hoses all the same size.... things like that
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Get the big bits laid out and build around them
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Get the big bits laid out and build around them
And maintain accessibility and serviceability!
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It's really nice to work on things that need 3 sizes of tool for the whole thing.
with engines being what they are, that dream isn't possible anyway.
second that interchangeability as a goal, but not a must.
I fully support serviceability. Most of the big changes made to 571 have been to improve access for repair and cleaning. Trans and tcase out without removing engine for example. Keep something long enough and you'll need to get it apart. Knowing you, you'll keep it for a while.
Bigger question is what do you want?
moon?
racecar?
hillkilling rock bouncer but with dignity and visibility?
rockbouncer?
tubejeep?
rec wheeler between a racecar and tubejeep?
if you have goals, lay them out first.
if you have inspirations, find the details.
see what people wish they'd done the first time and take note.
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Buy one complete from Erik Miller and be done with it :o :-X
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#deeppockets
Buy Jeff Brown's if that's on the table ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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plates still?
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Goal is something similar to Moose. Steering 60s F/R. Narrowed, shaved, minimal truss on top to mount links and single ended ram. VW 1.8T. Has 4.XX diff ratio, dime a dozen, lots of aftermarket, torquey, and has bolt on, fixed CV flanges. 39s from the XJ. Two seater (obviously) and as little as possible to make it all work.
No plates. The only purpose I see for that is out west trips and realistically that is probably going to be once every 2-3 years at best - not something worth building around. No racing.
There is a ton of terrain within a 3hr radius of me where small, light, maneuverable rigs on reds dominate.
I have gotten 9 years of hard wheeling from my Jeep and plan to get another 1-2 out of it. Things can always change, but I see having this buggy for years to come.
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plates still?
things I regret...
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I'm getting closer to my plated 1.8t build... I'll probably regret the constraints I'm giving myself a bit but it's gonna be notable and hopefully useful.
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My Jeep hasn’t had plates since 2014. And I barely drove it the last two years it did have them. Meh, Comanche and old junk of the like fully fills my road driving fun meter.
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sounds like your on the right track to something cool! cant wait to see it
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14b front and rear and be done with ring & pinion breakages.
It must be a tube’d chassis buggy? What about a ‘truggy’?
(https://www.rockcrawlersforsale.com/files/05-2018/ad2212/15274530461771449138_large.jpg)
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i think is going for half the size and weight of that unit....
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9s are what he needs for the moon unit. Maybe even air shock it. Selectables and cutting brakes if you want to cone dodge.
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This is along the lines of what I’m going for.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190827/6dc1e21ffab29770e4c304bdfaba7372.jpg)
<3500lb is the goal. 14s are big, heavy boat anchors best suited for rock bouncers and high hp. 60s f/r at that weight with 150hp will be fine.
Nothing other than maybe a samurai or tracker as a base will fit my goals as a base rig, and I think I can be smaller and lighter going all tube.
9s are out of the budget and not worth the ~250lb [estimated] savings to me. Cutting brake in my Jeep has made front dig about 20% more useful, being able to scootch the rear one way or the other would be 10x more useful.
Nothing but wheels comes off my Jeep to make this happen, so I have time.
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I might take selectables and cutting over front dig? Not certain. One arb is a similar price to one good driveline disconnect needed to do front dig in a transaxle car, isn’t it?
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Plan is to run full case auto lockers f/r. Maybe a rear disconnect down the road but frankly, my experience shows that there is very rarely enough traction with just front wheels to do anything meaningful with a front dig on the trail. Mostly use it now to make up for poor turning radius, and I suspect I’ll never miss it with rear steer.
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highly likely.
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Just buy my Sami.
What tire size?
I never had an issue with my toy axles with cromo's in them running 37 stickeys.
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39 reds. Guy I wheel with here has broken multiple rear Toy r&p on 37 reds in his 2500lb transaxle buggy. I wanted to do FJ80s but the guy in the rig I pictured above advised against Toy anything after running them in that rig.
I considered Tracker or Samurai base, but decided against it. What’s the point? Most of it will get cut away and it will never be as light as tube and a transaxle.
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Following this thread.
I'm in the process of building a smaller scale buggy for my son, I've bought 3 "Suzuki" platforms, and have been working on my mobile chassis table so I can roll it around my shop..
Small and light is the key for me as well, I'm hoping he can use in up until the time he's legal to drive.
Final drivetrain is out of a 2001 tracker, 2.0, auto and case, rear axle out of a 1996 sidekick with factory 5.13's, front sami axle with spacers to match the rear width. I bought a set of 33's to get him going, but I'll build it for a larger tire. Links and air shocks all around.
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Just start building!
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Just start building!
This is the high level message I am getting from this thread. Time to start collecting parts!
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190831/1c2451ef42d13818d401b47a97acb4d0.jpg)
Guess it’s time to end this thread and start a build thread.
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Curious as to why you chose a vw power plant? Did you consider a 1.6 Honda or even a 2.2 ecotec ?and if you did why the vw over them
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Curious as to why you chose a vw power plant? Did you consider a 1.6 Honda or even a 2.2 ecotec ?and if you did why the vw over them
I’m curious on what your top speed will be
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Hondas run backwards. Can cause packaging issues.
Ecotech could be a good choice.
Fuel efficiency isn’t a deciding factor in this, I’d bet my house on it.
It wasn’t me who gave him the vw idea afaik
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Quick math say ~38 mph at 6,000 rpm.
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Iirc they hum along pretty happy at 6k.
I’m hoping for 55 at 4k in mine with 2.73s and a tdi trans. Probably going to require 35s. But that belongs in another thread!
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Front engine design excludes GM stuff due to transaxle offset and Honda stuff because it runs backwards.
I wanted 150hp and the 1.8t gives good low end torque. It’s dime a dozen and has endless aftermarket support. The 01M trans is not the best unit but it has fixed, 6 bolt flange CV yokes, CVs are offset to the proper side, diff ratio is 4.53:1 and had a relatively low first gear at 2.71:1. The car has 83k on it so I’m hoping with a couple preventative updates the trans will work ok for a while anyway.
Top speed really is not much of a concern.
Here is a better pic of the car I’m modeling mine after. Weighs 2600lb with Toy axles and Neon transaxle.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190904/225b29fcf15d22c1a1beecfa58fd0033.jpg)
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you have a linky for that build?
i've been kicking plans around for something similar, so im curious to know what you mean by gm transaxle offset is no good
i did not know honda ran backwards but if using the stock tranny do the outputs rotate in the correct direction
do you also plan to use a neon trans or will you run a rear output tranny and a t-case?
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He’s going to run the VW 01m automatic transaxle from his engine donor car.
The drive hubs on the vw trans are basically at the flywheel. Very long passenger side axle shaft, same reason that it appealed to me for front-mid mount in Gus and still having some front driveshaft length to work with.
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Most transaxles do not have equal length CV shafts because the “diff†part is offset to one side or the other. On the VW, the diff is offset to the driver’s side. Turn the drivetrain 90° with the engine at the front and now you essentially have two passenger drop transfercase outputs (once the spiders are welded).
My understanding is that GM stuff is either offset to the center or the other side of the car, making it better suited to go in the rear with trans facing forward. Flipped diffs needed for that maybe? Honda spins the other way and avoids needing flipped diffs. Once I narrowed down front engine, the VW quickly seemed to me like the obvious choice so I did not research much further.
I will run the stock VW trans which will work well to attach driveshafts to because they use flanges rather than most other FWD stuff where the CV kinda “pops†in and subsequently can pop out pretty easily. Moose had that problem and the Neon buggy guy came up with a PTFE/flange captured contraption to make it work.
This is the VW trans. The output you see here will be the front output (and the rear is right behind it). The flange makes it much easier to mount a u joint yoke with a little creative machining.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190904/04a94cf07d5b5033833fa93bb9c6919b.jpg)
There are pics of a lot of it in this thread. His IG handle is johns4whln, has some pics there too.
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/2328786-neon-transaxle-buggy.html?amp=1
I’m going to have a fun time building a two seater. This is looking from the back of the buggy at the “rear†transaxle output. I think I can make it work with a couple inches here and there and some creative floor panels.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190904/75827553a665c32448c862e01609228d.jpg)
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My bad, from the 1st pic you posted the front is so tiny I imagined this was a rear engine build, but regardless for my own research purposes would this drive line be suitable for a rear engine build, or naw
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You’d have to run it basically like Smike did in 572. Trans pointing forward, diffs flipped.
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This is a good thread too. Same guy who built the Neon buggy sorta brainstorming before starting to build. This is where I was turned onto the VW idea.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/2288802-more-transaxle-talk.html%3famp=1
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so low pinion axles?
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LP rear, HP front. Both need to be offset to passenger side when they’re in the car, which is of course is the opposite of the configurations that exist unmodified. Going to cut and sleeve long sides and weld inner Cs on short sides to get everything where I need it.
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start with both high pinion fords if your cutting and sleeving any way? (a front diff works the same directionally when moved to the rear)
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o, was rear steer talked about at all here? or is that out of the plans
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Rear steer is happening
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Need LP rear for ring and pinion strength
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Need LP rear for ring and pinion strength
I think you mean HP flipped into LP?
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No flipping of axles here. A front axle mounted in the back spins the proper way. The pinion switching sides on the ring gear when the axle gets mounted 180° differently is what makes that work.
Basically, I am going to build a pass drop HP front and driver drop LP front. The driver drop LP will go in the rear.
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A front axle mounted in the back spins the proper way. The pinion switching sides on the ring gear when the axle gets mounted 180° differently is what makes that work.
does it though? it works because the drive shaft spins opposite now in its location.... its a mind breaker to think about it.
i wouldn't think the weight, HP, and speeds of this unit there would be any concerns about a 60 gear set running backwards or upside down.
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Know many people running front Chevy 60s as a rear axle. No modifications or special gearsets.
Pinion moves to other side, driveshaft also spins the pinion the other way when it gets turned around. Look up gearset for Chevy D60 gearset, there is no designation for front or rear because they’re the same.
I’m $100 into a Chevy LP center chunk, HP Ford probably fine as a rear but I’d rather not wonder.
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ya i know i have geared a few 60s and know the parts are same :)
what i was tring to talk my self though is that yes, same gear sets (like i put in moose) for 60 front and rear, but pinions are going opposite directions, so one IS running on the coast side right?
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cant wait to see the parts picture and and lawn chair!
tube size? 1.5"? .120 and .095?
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Meant no offense on 60 parts knowledge! :) Thats my understanding though... LP front and HP rear will drive on coast side and HP front and LP rear drive on drive side.
Going to get the axles all squared away with steering stuff first. Then pull motor from car, buy a couple seats and start building on a chassis table.
Planning to stick with 1.75 .120. I don’t think there is enough weight savings in a different choice that would be worth the strength and weldability debit.