M4wd&Fabrications

Projects place => Projects Section => Topic started by: MarcW on August 20, 2017, 03:30:30 PM

Title: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 20, 2017, 03:30:30 PM
Hey guys, first post, starting off strong lol. I'm not a huge forum guy so I'll try to update as much as possible, but I figured this was the easiest way to ask everyone at once.

Most of you know the FlexRock 4600 build, right now I'm starting to get some money saved for winter time where it'll get parked for the final stages to get it race ready by spring 2018. Including cage, seats, harnesses, center con/dash, figure out what to do with rockers, and figure out what to do with the tcase, other odds and ends.

Jeff and I have gone back and forth on the tcase, and while I would love to just buy an Atlas and be done with it, I got a d300 for $20 sitting in my parts washer all cleaned up ready to go. That and I have read about other 4600 cars actually finish KOH with 241's and other tcases. The Atlas I want is $2700 shipped.

With that said my first question for you guys is am I going to be able to keep this 300 alive? What upgrades, if any, should I do first? I will be keeping the stock 4.0 indefinitely(2000 flavor right now, possibly a 98 if I feel like building it), stock aw4, 4.88's in my 1/2 ton axles, pushing nothing bigger than a 35. It WILL BE FLIPPED, I have a diver drop hp44 that I don't plan to change.

I know many of you run d300's now, Wingman, Dennis, Mike I know you've had quite a few. Basically just looking for any insight if it's even possible to make this thing survive racing with what the XJ has. Leave it stock, 4:1, output upgrades, or is the case itself the big weak point. I've been doing a ton of research online and it seems most people run into trouble with big tires and 4:1 kits.

Thanks guys!

-Marc
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: Wingman on August 20, 2017, 04:01:47 PM
Here's my $0.02 (worth every penny :P )

The Dana 300 is a decent case. While not the strongest, it is compact and light weight compared to other gear cases. It does have it's weak points.

Upgrade the rear output to an 32 spline HD for sure, and the front should be done too but may survive.

Make sure it is well supported and not just hanging off of the rear of the transmission.

For racing, I'd stick with the stock gearing. Don't bother with a 4:1 kit.

Flipping this case will be your biggest headache. It WILL leak. Shifters are a pain to arrange. And shifting can prove difficult.

Start saving your money for an Atlas.


If I were you, I'd leave the stock 231 in it until I could afford an Atlas. Maybe upgrade the planetary set and definitely the output.

Did I mention "Atlas"?
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: TrailTamer on August 20, 2017, 04:14:30 PM
I want to agree with Wingman. Go aftermarket. Atlas or alike and nice shifter set up then you're solid I'd think.
Meanwhile, run the stock T case and watch for an used atlas to save some $$

Or build the NP231J with bigger chain, 6 gears.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: luvmyxj on August 20, 2017, 04:43:57 PM
Np205 and don't look back
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 20, 2017, 05:01:16 PM
I pretty much expected everyone that would reply to say go Atlas. I wouldn't be able to swing one for maybe a year/year and a half, I need to make cuts somewhere; I need a truck and trailer to even move the thing first. I've been searching Pirate since I started the build last year, knowing what my plans were, and almost every used Atlas I come across is located on the West Coast, and shipping would eat any savings, or the setup is completely different from what I need.

I do like the idea of just keeping the 231, short term, at the very least it needs a new chain as mine is on its way out. Are the planetary gears in it even a weak point? I think wider chain upgrade is from a dodge 231, and the 6 planetary from a 241 right? 

I like to plan for what can fail and try to be proactive about it, if it means pushing my deadline to complete the build I usually will (I did with my shocks) just to save the headache of replacing broken parts that should have been upgraded. I also don't like throwing money at something knowing it's getting replaced, so if the 300 isn't really an upgrade for a race rig, then I'd probably just run the 231 trail riding(using the time to test/tune) and hold off on racing until I could get an Atlas, if the general consensus is that the 300 or 231 will not survive.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 20, 2017, 05:04:22 PM
Np205 and don't look back

Will this fit nicely underneath with ZERO floor cutting/modification? I know Mike and Matt run them on their 4400 cars. I also know they're big and heavy.

Honestly haven't even thought of a 205 for my application, but if it can fit then it is a possibility.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: M4wdFab on August 20, 2017, 07:50:17 PM
205s are heavy and with that comes need mounting thought to make anything around them survive. 

i would stay away from an Atlas.  far too much expense and its not like they have a super glorified relibility majic carpet under them either. 

upgrade the 300 as been said, Erik J has been though those upgrades and should weigh in. 



i have blown up a rear 205 output, but im special :)   and all of our 205s are as found with only seal and yoke upgrades installed.  All of our cars (5 now? have all been divorced 205s also)
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: Wingman on August 20, 2017, 07:57:50 PM
The NP205 is arguably THE case for strength but weighs 2x as much as the Atlas, D300, or NP231/241 and only has a 2:1 low range. You'll never have the HP or drivetrain to demand that kind of beef.

I think any money thrown at a D300 would be better saved toward an Atlas. It's just going to be a leaky, flipped, SOB that you'll loathe until you swap it out.

As previously stated, a built NP231HD with the current ingredients you have is the best interim solution...
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: mr.mindless on August 20, 2017, 09:29:52 PM
Is a 300 really even an upgrade from a mildly upgraded 231 or an as-is 241?

it's certainly not as quickly swapped for something junkyarded or given away as a 231/241 if it does give you issues.

I broke the 231DHD in my Dakota - but like Smike, I'm special. and it was impact issues when it broke (driveshafts in all cases if I'm not mistaken). Saves the need for driveshaft work too.

I'd run the stock case until issues are seen. Just keep a close eye for leaks since if they go dry they go boom relatively quickly, and a leak is often a crack.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 20, 2017, 10:52:01 PM
That is the question, if the 300 is an upgrade. I have $20 plus gas(plus a couple hours cleaning) into the 300 thus far. So not to use it is not a problem; part it out on eBay or sell whole.

SMike you're pretty much the only one that's ever said not to get an Atlas, do you have any bad experiences with them, or just think they're overpriced for what they are?

Wingman I have read of people flipping the forks and building new shift setups where the inspection plate goes. Is the leaking attributed to the OEM shift rails, or it just leaks everywhere?

I'm really looking for what my end game should be, and start planning for that. I don't expect to be race ready until the middle/end of spring, but knowing which direction I want to go dictates what I dedicate time a resources to now, as this is probably the last "big ticket" part I need to figure out. Should I be looking for deals on an Atlas, should I be collecting parts for the 300. Or is the 231 (maybe stock 241?) with a few upgrades REALLY race worthy. I do understand it's racing and anything can break.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: mr.mindless on August 21, 2017, 12:34:14 AM
Atlas cases are not as bombproof as you'd hope for the price. If I were in the market for something better than a 205, I think I'd be looking closer at the stak cases.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: TrailTamer on August 21, 2017, 10:58:49 AM
Atlas cases are not as bombproof as you'd hope for the price. If I were in the market for something better than a 205, I think I'd be looking closer at the stak cases.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think stak is available to buy new anymore. Some of their models are problematic with popping out of gear, though.
You may be referring to Trail Worthy Fab's Hero T-cases but they cost more than Atlas.
http://www.trailworthyfab.com/Trail-Worthy-Fab-Two-Speed-Hero-Case.html

wider chain and sprockets can be sourced from a NP231HD or NP231C I think, and 241 for the 6 pinion planetary if your wide chain transfer case donor don't have it.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: mr.mindless on August 21, 2017, 11:11:04 AM
You're absolutely right, the Hero is what I was thinking of.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: Harrison on August 21, 2017, 12:26:21 PM
Another vote for run the 231, beef it up if you have to take it apart anyway. Lots of those things surviving abuse with XJs on 35s.

I have said this many times: if it was possible to do better than 2:1 gearing in a 205, my Jeep would have one. $800 for the ORD 203/205 kit, then buy a 203, then buy a 205, then make it work under an XJ... F that. I have no regrets with my Atlas. Broke a yoke and they sent me a new one for free.

Building a beefed 300 made no financial sense to me.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: rejeep on August 21, 2017, 01:52:57 PM
built 300 is for bragging rights
keep the NP and work on the atlas..

Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: luvmyxj on August 21, 2017, 03:13:59 PM
You can do better then 2:1 with a 205, northwest fab has some options as well as you could run a klune v in front of it.it would suck to drive 2k miles to have a Atlas break apart like what happened to Calrocs racing on their 1st lap of their 1st race with a Atlas, didn't even Shannon get knocked out by an Atlas at koh?
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: M4wdFab on August 21, 2017, 04:16:13 PM
have been many failures, i suspect same deal as RCV- kept on the DL to keep up their rep and market
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 29, 2017, 10:37:45 PM
have been many failures, i suspect same deal as RCV- kept on the DL to keep up their rep and market

I'm hoping the RCV's are the least of my worries, and with my 44 and the rest of my drivetrain I think they'll be worry free. I read somewhere today (old thread I believe) that over stretching them makes them wear premature and start popping, made me think of you lol.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 29, 2017, 10:39:31 PM
You can do better then 2:1 with a 205, northwest fab has some options as well as you could run a klune v in front of it.it would suck to drive 2k miles to have a Atlas break apart like what happened to Calrocs racing on their 1st lap of their 1st race with a Atlas, didn't even Shannon get knocked out by an Atlas at koh?

It would def bring the suck to travel at that way to have something break like that. For now I'll plan to keep the 231 and upgrade the internals like mentioned, maybe get a season or so of racing under my belt first (if the 231 lasts) before thinking of upgrading.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 29, 2017, 10:42:51 PM
Been working on some odds and ends while contemplating the whole tcase conundrum the past week. took the rear end out to add a ramp to the bottom of the 8.8. It wasn't bad but I def noticed the lip was there the first time I got to play in the rocks with the car at AOAA.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 29, 2017, 10:51:02 PM
While the axle was out I decided to redo my bumps on all 4 corners as well as plate the inside of the rear frame from a couple ripples, most likely due to airing the jeep without a proper cage ::). Having broke the Daystar stingers a couple times already they had to go before the car sees any real trails/races. I have had very good experiences with the Prothane bumps, both wedge style and coil inserts, so they will be going on. Rears done, fronts are up next, I need to cut out the old towers and make some new shorter ones as the longer they are the more they want to bend.

While I had the rear axle out I also added some reinforcement brackets to the front frame side leaf mounts. While not bending now I have seen them become problematic from hard use. That and the fact that Chrysler decided to make the hole 2 sizes bigger than the bolt allowed the bolt to walk around and constantly loosen was getting annoying.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on August 30, 2017, 12:07:33 PM
Leaf brackets I made (shown above)
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on July 23, 2018, 12:31:32 PM
Hey guys, haven’t been very active here, but wanted to keep this thread alive. Been super busy the last year as you all have I’m sure.

The Race Jeep is still being worked on although a lot slower now. After the tarrifs got imposed on the imports that matter most to us, I am having a hard time finding the tube I need to build my cage. So for the past few months I’ve just been collecting parts, and getting everything else I need sitting on the shelves in my garage.

*I need 2x.120 DOM so if anyone has a good source please let me know! My usual supplier (Service Steel) is out of pretty much every size imaginable, and I refuse to pay more than it would have been through them lol.

My brother also decided to completely rebuild his XJ as well, so I’ve been doing that for him and hopefully finish it this month.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on July 23, 2018, 12:41:20 PM
I’ve also taken over doing the events in Attica for FlexRock, and we’ve had a few good ones so far this year with ththe local Jeep clubs. Looking forward to our club picnic there, and thrashing on the Tracker!
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on July 23, 2018, 12:55:26 PM
Last Wicked event in Attica
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: rejeep on July 23, 2018, 01:38:12 PM
i know its been a while, but is the new thing to wheel hoodless vs topless
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on July 23, 2018, 01:53:42 PM
i know its been a while, but is the new thing to wheel hoodless vs topless

It was high 90’s that day, I wasn’t taking any chances. Although the oem cooling system of these Trackers is surprisingly efficient. Can’t say the same for Brett’s XJ in the back though.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on July 26, 2018, 02:24:35 PM
Bought a spool last night for the 8.8 rear. With the c-clip slim kit and full truss, I think the axle will have a fighting chance of surviving serious abuse, all while staying light.

I still plan to run the Aussie in the front HP44.

As far as transfer case, I decided a couple months ago to just run the 231. I bought the upgraded parts from an eBay vendor as the price was close to what I’d pay at a JY(nvm the time pulling them), and they came clean ready to install.

The parts include: HD 6 pinion planetary gear, 1-1/4 chain, and the wider sprockets for the new chain.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on July 27, 2018, 04:25:16 PM
Our wholesaler gave me a deal I couldn’t refuse on some 35x12.5x17 Pro Comp MT2’s for the Race Jeep. I wasn’t going to switch tires from the brand new Maxxis Razr’s I have now, but man are they heavy, and wide! They measure almost 14” actual width, and are rediculously heavier than any other E rated in the same size that I’ve come across.

I figured the sale of the Razr’s will pay for the switch as well.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on July 27, 2018, 04:28:13 PM
Still in need of DOM, so if anyone has access to some at a reasonable price please let me know!

Service Steel is where I squally get the steel, and when the 2x.120 is in stock it’s around $3.50/ft.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on September 11, 2018, 08:04:07 PM
OEM 2000 motor sold, trying to figure out what to do with the decent 98 motor I have to build; 505 Stage 1 cam kit and use motor as is, full rebuild with 505 kit, OEM, or say eff it and get a crate motor depending on price. I’m not opposed to any of those options, and would definetly appreciate any opinions from those in the club that have raced. I do know I don’t want to build a stroker motor as every one I read about when it comes to racing has problems.
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: M4wdFab on September 11, 2018, 08:39:38 PM
dumping money into motor build for a race car that hasen't raced is simply silly.   


get the thing through a few races with a stock motor that doesn't owe you anything.  work the rest of the car out, let it blow up first without costing you an arm and leg and depression.   

figure out your tuning plan.  my changes have been very negative to wreck wheeling with a big cam. 
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: mr.mindless on September 11, 2018, 08:51:10 PM
100% that.
shake down the rest on the fresh build with whatever trash you have. At least rape it around the Attica track for hours and try to decide how much you need.

strokers do seem to be bad news and a big waste. 4.0 is the bane of a 4600 XJ. They are race tractors...
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on September 11, 2018, 09:27:59 PM
Good points, thank you. I was oringally planning to run the motor oem to save money and get the Jeep racing sooner, but the guy at 505 claims Jeepspeeders are seeing upwards of 50hp increase just from his cam kit with injectors. I don’t know how true that is, and like the somewhat predictable reliability of a stock motor at least for shaking everything down and getting a few races down.

That seems to be the plan then. Once I shift a few things around in my garage I plan to start shopping steel again, hopefully find someone reasonable. I want to get everything in garage to start before winter, be done by spring.

Smike I forget the name of the place you go to for tube?
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: M4wdFab on September 12, 2018, 08:04:51 AM

Kevin Ryan <kryan@murphynolan.com>

http://www.murphynolan.com/ 

Kevin is pretty responsive to email quotes within a day.  ordered thousands of feet of tube through him.  they deliver to my shop for free also.  checked around the first few orders they were always best price and most in stock so after that just order from them.  havent had an order this year though. 
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: luvmyxj on September 12, 2018, 01:20:19 PM
If your pals with Scott  from wicked at all, his bro is in sales at Klein, got me a pretty amazing deal for what I needed
Title: Re: 4600 XJ
Post by: MarcW on September 12, 2018, 08:21:57 PM
I don’t think I know who Scott is. I’m sure I’ve met him though doing all the Attica events with Wicked, and just can’t place him.