M4wd&Fabrications
Projects place => Tech => Topic started by: Harrison on November 27, 2014, 05:44:47 PM
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Just read through part of Matt's build and found this:
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/27/221734f09054c0caec1b58198dc760cf.jpg)
Also found a post from Gif with a deleted spreadsheet I'm assuming was used for matching orbital/ram displacements. Gif, can you post this again?
Do you guys have any links to info on all the different types of orbitals? Load reactive, load sensing, etc. I'm thinking it's not safe to assume I want the same orbital as Matt. Looking to do something to Troy/571 originally/Jeff/Erik's CJ.
Will a hot rodded stock pump or something more HD like a WJ pump feed a single ended 8" ram
End goal will be easily steering 39" Reds. Occasional street use (no inspection here, not looking to start that debate)
Thanks guys
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i used the stock pump on the i6 in the mj, worked just fine
used the stock pressure line and cut it ,smike gave me a high pressure compression fitting to attach to a hose
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Stock pumps on 571 and 572. No hot rodding as far as I'm aware. Stock hydroboost pumps on both?
Tapatalking in traffic
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What about orbital types? What will I want for this application? PSC says they only sell load reactive. They have two different options, I put the cheaper in my cart below but have no idea what the difference is.
Also says the number of turns lock to lock is determined by dividing cylinder fluid volume by orbital volume. Makes sense. How is cylinder volume calculated? Simple as 2.5"dia x 8" length or does shaft size come into account?
Parts from PSC single ended ram kit, minus pump, res, and ram. Ram w same dimensions from Surplus Center. Can I get the lines cheaper? I'm assuming I'm stuck with their orbital to shaft adapter thingy.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/27/97d9076cade2805a77ac29594d58d519.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/27/f9ce0d829a7efe84490e3fe996a67e70.jpg)
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My advice from piecing together hydro...buy the double ended full hydro kit from trail gear for $900 and be done with it.
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My biggest reason for going single ended is space. Not excited about welding a shovel to the front of my axle. Hoping it might fit right where my assist ram is now.
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Is there enough room to mount it high and incorporate angled skid?
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I guess that's what I'm trying to avoid doing. Lots of options for mounting single ended high that won't require skid with drag link out of the way
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Silly to focus on single ended when DE can be had so cheap.
On SE the Ram displaces fluid on one side only. Different steering speed each way.
Tapatalking in traffic
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hoses are stupid cheap from surplus center. could beat 160 with a full extra set
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Is double ended that much better? Worth fighting with the packaging to have over single ended?
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Is double ended that much better? Worth fighting with the packaging to have over single ended?
No.
SE is fine for trail rig.
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http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/708701-best-power-steering-pump-modifications-pressure-flow.html
I run a stock pump / SE 2.5X10" cylinder / char lynn steering valve on my buggy.
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SE is fine for a trail rig but I'd REALLY prefer double ended on the street myself. The wheel slowly turning all the way around with small steering corrections and corners would get to me.
Tapatalking in traffic
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Thanks Gif!
smike gave me a high pressure compression fitting to attach to a hose
Does anyone have info on this? Similar to the ends that come on the PSC DIY hoses kits? Didn't see anything that looked right on Surplus Center.
I am planning to ditch the stock steering wheel if I go the single ended route for that reason. I know even Dan's DE setup still ends up wonky though.
Screenshots for reference later. Will probably end up putting assist back together and selling as a kit when I can and use proceeds towards this stuff. Should be under $600 for everything with Dan's PSC discount.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/27/d1ed23f957196a83f16fc97db84b0020.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/27/d5eba52f9debc48777ad60471cc5c7ad.jpg)
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power drives calls it a "bump" fitting
goes from oring thing on the box to JIC6
something like this
not sure what size you need on box end. jic6 is what everyone runs with 3/8 hose
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/16mm-x-6-jic-adapter.html
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http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/708701-best-power-steering-pump-modifications-pressure-flow.html
I run a stock pump / SE 2.5X10" cylinder / char lynn steering valve on my buggy.
I updated my steering to a DE cylinder this off season. All other components are the same.
The end result was a minimal change.
Slight gain in steering quickness and power.
Better cylinder protection due to packaging requirements.
As for the SE cylinder.
Pros: off the self parts / packaging / price
Cons: uneven cycle time lock to lock (i never noticed this in mine, even at speed)
uneven power lock to lock (again, i never noticed this) if you can feel the difference then your system was designed wrong from the start.
Conclusion: I think a well designed SE system is great for 95% of what we ask it to do. I would have no hesitation going back to a SE cylinder.
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l264/jeepgif/616D313A-0892-47E5-8461-28D5B28B1EE6_zpsbmfmqclw.jpg) (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/jeepgif/media/616D313A-0892-47E5-8461-28D5B28B1EE6_zpsbmfmqclw.jpg.html)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l264/jeepgif/2012_BUGGY/DSC07029.jpg) (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/jeepgif/media/2012_BUGGY/DSC07029.jpg.html)
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Thanks Gif. Funny timing, bent my tie rod and assist ram this weekend. Was able to bend back and free things up and keep wheeling. Ordering parts to build SE setup this week.
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Cons: uneven cycle time lock to lock (i never noticed this in mine, even at speed)
uneven power lock to lock (again, i never noticed this) if you can feel the difference then your system was designed wrong from the start.
What size rod were you running with your 2.5x10 ram? A 2.5x8x1.125 gives me 3 turns one way and 4 the other with a 9.7 cu in steering valve. For comparison, what did yours end up being?
Going to 2.5x8x1 makes it 3.4 and 4 turns... but that size isn't an option on Surplus Center. 2.5x10x1 is an option though... is that why you went with a 10" ram and put a limiting collar on it? My 8" assist ram is a perfect match for my steering range, but I have it limited a little to keep the tires out of the links.
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wait your steering is pushing 7 turns lock to lock? huh?
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not 3 from center and 4 from center, but 3 from full extension to full retraction and 4 from full retraction to full extension.
That seems a little slow to me but probably fine for a crawler.
I'd like to be more like 2.25-2.5. even 2 would probably suit me as long as there was enough power behind it.
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i guess i never thought enough to care about understanding that. makes sense now.
carry on!
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I was worried more if the 3 to 4 turn ratio seemed reasonable. Reducing the rod size makes them closer but not many options for big cylinder with a small rod.
Stock XJ is like 3.5 lock to lock so I figured that was reasonable. A bigger ram later on would get me under 3 pretty easily.
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*smaller ram ;D
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Dammit! Yes, smaller.
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I was worried more if the 3 to 4 turn ratio seemed reasonable. Reducing the rod size makes them closer but not many options for big cylinder with a small rod.
Stock XJ is like 3.5 lock to lock so I figured that was reasonable. A bigger ram later on would get me under 3 pretty easily.
Most cars are 3-4 lock to lock.
This is what i modeled mine around. In a panic mode i wanted the buggy to react as expected. 99% of the time im driving a street vehicle.
Right now im at 3 lock to lock
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Cons: uneven cycle time lock to lock (i never noticed this in mine, even at speed)
uneven power lock to lock (again, i never noticed this) if you can feel the difference then your system was designed wrong from the start.
What size rod were you running with your 2.5x10 ram? A 2.5x8x1.125 gives me 3 turns one way and 4 the other with a 9.7 cu in steering valve. For comparison, what did yours end up being?
Going to 2.5x8x1 makes it 3.4 and 4 turns... but that size isn't an option on Surplus Center. 2.5x10x1 is an option though... is that why you went with a 10" ram and put a limiting collar on it? My 8" assist ram is a perfect match for my steering range, but I have it limited a little to keep the tires out of the links.
I needed 9" of total stroke. I cut the stops off the axle to get a little more steer...
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Right now im at 3 lock to lock
On paper, what was the difference in turns L and R with your SE setup?
I already pulled the trigger on the 9.7 cu in steering valve. 3 turns lock to lock one way, 4 the other.
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Right now im at 3 lock to lock
On paper, what was the difference in turns L and R with your SE setup?
I already pulled the trigger on the 9.7 cu in steering valve. 3 turns lock to lock one way, 4 the other.
same, 3 and 4
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1.7 ;D