M4wd&Fabrications
Projects place => Projects Section => Topic started by: M4wdFab on December 03, 2024, 10:16:10 PM
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last towing trip with 2 cars in the 48' i really abused my truck brakes much more than normal.and smoked them twice in PA hills.
need to at least rebuild with new drum stuff or im thinking i might give a go at a DIY disk setup.
The kits with everything that "might" bolt on is 3600$ now!!
not seeing anything that says it will fit torsion axles
id like to investigate if i can put my own 3 axle disk brake kit together using GM 3/4 ton disks and calipers that are common to what we all run on our D60 /14bolts. turn down current drum hubs to accept an off the shelf rotor (and make my track width wider a rotor hat thickness to help tire to inner wheel well clearance (Less than 1/2" currently, with rub marks from turning)
rockauto can get your 6 rotors, 6 calipers, 6 brake hoses for 500$ shipped
same 3/4 ton 80s chevy stuff thats on most of our disk swapped offroad 1tons
Pump is next problem- looks like 900$ or so for off the shelf.
looking at brushless DC pumps for RC excavators that look like similar pressure for 50$. hell even if 1 per axle, that might work. fluid compatibility?
Plasma table out some brackets, bam?
The kits with everything that "might" bolt on is 3600$ now
turn down current drum hubs to accept an off the shelf rotor (and make my track width wider a rotor hat thickness to help tire to inner wheel well clearance (Less than 1/2" currently, with rub marks from turning)
just putting some thoughts down here.
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that is a MUCH bigger caliper than the commercial kits use. I've got 1990ish Buick front calipers, midsize single piston mounted on 2 slide bolts. I can look that up or I may have dropped it in my trailer thread.
I'd like to get an off the shelf rotor figured out for better interchange. The one rotor I wore through and replaced based on wheel studs has a 1/8" different offset than the others and I had to grind the new caliper a bunch to allow it to center on that rotor, it was up against the bracket someplace.
standard trailer brake hoses are expensive to adapt to normal car calipers. better off to go automotive style plumbing front to back, and just run hard line.
I'd get the off the shelf pump that modulates pressure from input voltage and just throw money at that problem instead of gambling there. That said, I had issues with my first pump and bought a second, I think Dexter?, and it has a broken mounting flange now but I'll probably just run it until it falls off unless I can maybe scan the end and make a steel bolt on mount on the table?
I suppose an RC excavator needs to be able to vary pressure based on a voltage sweep of some sort though so if it'll do 0-1600 or whatever it is (that might be drum and disk might be 3000) then why not give it a shot for that price. You can easily keep it all out of the weather (and letting weather in was the failure mode of my first pumps)
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interesting on size comparison- the 3/4 ton front calipers are GVWR @6600lbs (or 60% of that as front?) so i was thinking they were sized about right for a 3 axle 21K trailer.
i had not considered the proportional part of braking, also noted. not sure i want to be smart enough to figure that out for whats already available.
ya with the enclosed, i was planning on just mounting the pump inside the trailer, running hard line to 8$ auto hoses yes.
the pumps i was looking at were 10MPa or ~1450psi. no clear data on flow rate.
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pumps look like about 900$
there is a used dexter one on ebay for 450.
they dont really have useful specs on them published.
1600$ in parts (new pump, rock auto), bracket development, hub machining (viable?) is where this looks to be as best case i guess.
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current setup is standard electric/drum? Built in controller or after market?
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yup, standard electric drum and built-in Ram controller.
I wonder if it knows about different brake types? My Prodigy P3 has electric and hydraulic modes, they come on differently and I think ramp differently.
I assume no noted issues in the miles with my goose, I know you've pulled it some.
I'd snatch that $450 Dexter pump right away... Tempted myself for a spare, knowing its there.
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the trailer has never really had good brakes or brakes at all. i have relied on the 4500 brakes and exhaust brake for years
i have never serviced them other than pumping grease, they are the same brakes and seals that i bought the trailer with 10 years ago. 70k i have clocked on that trailer.
Im sure there are grease soaked shoes and possibly wiring issues. positive not a truck issue. you can select which type of brakes, it doesnt matter. works fine with other trailers
i guess i have the winter to think on it.
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Few years ago I found my shoes caked with grease and replaced them, figured seals went bad. Pumped grease through the fitting on the spindle and found half the grease pushed right past the new seal and trashed the new shoes. I was able to bake the grease out with mapp gas but I don't use that fitting at all anymore. Chad said he drives around to get the hubs warm then sticks the tube of grease in the microwave or some crazy Chad thing otherwise it's guaranteed the seals don't hold it.
Mine are supposed to be self adjust but have been losing performance the last couple years and are down to almost nothing. Been many years so maybe just worn out. My truck came with an inop aftermarket exhaust brake, I am going to try to make a point of getting it working for this coming season.
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"Pumped grease through the fitting on the spindle"
I read somewhere that that fitting was only designed for boat trailers to push the water out of the bearings, they should never be used on other trailers, new grease should only be added by disassembling and packing.
Not so sure about the validity, but from as many people who have fouled their pads by over-greasing, I seem to believe it.
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I'd snatch that $450 Dexter pump right away... Tempted myself for a spare, knowing its there.
This listing was ended by the seller on Wed, Dec 4 at 5:07 PM because the item was lost or broken.
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back on thinking of this.
also noted, last year was the first year i believe of non OEM truck brakes, and im wondering if my brake fade that was experienced was because of inferior truck brakes or less than what i have been use to.
anyhow, still on the hunt and i think my process will be:
take a peek at trailer hub/ torsion clearance.
order chevy rotors,pads,calipers, hoses for one axle and then see if i can make it work or not.
order rest of parts for other two axles and pump.
cant get it to work, just have spare parts for our king pin buggies.
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looking again at this and now i find complete kit at 2200 or 2250 oil bath and with 9/16" studs!
https://hydrastarusa.com/products/hydrastar-7k-axles-8-lug-integral-triple-axle-trailer-disc-brake-kit-9-16-in-e7k-tr9
hmm, thats better than i was going to do piecing it together, and having to make my own brackets. still expensive calipers/rotors/pads to service though.
id really like rock auto 31$ calipers, 31$ rotors, 10$ pads available at any autoparts store (85k20)
bah
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$2200 kit (2.5" piston caliper, 13" rotor) or
off shelf pump $800
6 Idler hubs $400 (needed? can i just machine my current drums off?) 400 includes all new bearings/seals ect
6 calipers (3" piston), 6 rotors (12.5"), pads, hoses $600
need to figure out mounting brackets or mod ones we use for off road @50/pair?.
misc line/fittings on hand
hassel but for service:
200$ hub/rotor order only from kit vs 31$ rotor available anywhere
125$ caliper order only vs 35$ caliper available anywhere
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more thoughts aloud
front 4x4 3/4 ton rotors arent going to clear idler hubs or my hubs machined down.
discovered 2001 express van front hub/rotors are SUPER close to what i would need, and they are 39$ lol at Rockauto. and i have a 2001 express chassis under the 52 IH build i could grab one from for testing.
just need to spec different cone bearings as trailer spindles are 1.25"/1.75" and 2001 express RA says they are 1.030"/1.625
def a possibility if i could track down bearing cones and seal that would work for massive cost savings and parts serviceability.
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current 7k trailer stuff
outer bearing 25580(cone I.D:1.75",cup O.D:3.263")
inner bearing 14125A(cone I.D:1.25",cup O.D:2.716"),
oil seal(I.D: 2.229", O.D:3.372", height: 0.375")
dust cover(Mounting diameter:2.724")
2001 3500 van
outer bearing (cone I.D:1.625",cup O.D:2.891")
inner bearing (cone I.D:1.030",cup O.D:2.438"),
oil seal(I.D: 2.229", O.D:3.372", height: 0.375")
dust cover(Mounting diameter:2.724")
source combo bearings from timkin catalog to mix 7ktrailer spindle and 2001hub
pg114 outer Tapered Roller Bearing 15123 / 15245 ID 1.25, cup OD 2.4409 (cost 2sets 18$ amazon, win)
inner Tapered Roller Bearing cant find an option boo hiss
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pulled a hub this morning to measure and look at things.
of course the wires were disconnected from the brake (shit butt connectors failed) and drum/shoes full of grease.
F me.
still need to stay the course as i think if i just threw easy 1000$ and replaced all brakes/ 9/16"hubs to new id still have disappointing shit brakes.
3/4ton rotors from buggy wont work. not machined flat where studs press in. need a rear 8 lug rotor application or 2wd unit bearing slip over.
need to determine OD of off shelf idler hubs if thats an option
looks like pleanty of room around torsion axles/frame for caliper brackets ect
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06 3/4ton rear rotors are 22$ each at rock auto and i have an axle downstairs im going to pull one and see how it would fit on an idler hub. id be fine if i need to lathe turn off 1/4" of 6 hubs
rotors, calipers, pads, hoses 550 from RA
6 idler hubs, pump, bearings, caps 1300
plasma table brakets/ make hardlines
thats about as good as i can plan. i think thats worth it over just slapping 1000 of stock backingplates/new hubs on.
then its cheap rotors and pads for service.
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all seems good, I'll repeat myself that the calipers on mine are FWD car stuff, half the size or less. might be a challenge to balance application pressure/volume but I bet bigger calipers and a pump set for drum brakes might be good at lower pressure - but probably even less volume. It'll probably be fine
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the big box trailer kits are 2.5" bore
my easy choices id like are 2 15/16 or 3"
are yours not kodiak or hydrastar?
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im still not convinced spending the 2500$ on the kit (after shipping) isnt a bad idea and just bolt on and be done (for a few years).
its not like i would do anything on the side the road to fix a dead brake or 2 when i have 6 to start with.
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there are a couple more used brake pumps on ebay right now also as an option to try and low ball offer
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mike do you know how your system modulates brake force? is it just on / off with pump up delay, or some type of electronic pressure bleed with comanded brake controller output? voltage? time? i honestly dont realy know what brake controllers out put and how
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winning. plenty of meat left on the hub turned down to just shy of 8" to fit inside 2006 3/4 silverado rear rotors i had on hand.
i did 2 of them this morning. lots of material removed and got out the big boy shaper tool bits to hawg. Ill order calipers and rotors now that i have an idea for bracket spacing and caliper foot print. its going to work sweet. might get lucky with a flat bracket off the plasma table.
then ill shop for a pump and decided 1000psi vs 1600 psi.
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Kodiak setup initially. now with $14 parts store closeout loaded calipers, the GM front wheel drive application their casting was based on. still with their expensive integrated disc hubs.
the brake controller varies voltage for stopping force.
the pump needs to take that varied voltage and apply variable pressure based on it. I assume (truly) that there's enough smarts in the pump controller that it is modulating pump duty based on that input voltage to hold a spec pressure for given voltage. Probably through PWM actuation of the pump? The voltage is only used as a trigger/input, the pump needs fixed power and ground.
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How's that stud length, they look a lil short on remaining stickout?
I'd look at redoing my brackets to work with those rotors after turning down hubs, if they're thin enough for my calipers...
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effective stud length will be only a rotor hat thickness shorter (5/16"?) and with steel wheels it should be fine.
deff one of the things i considered before doing this, still have 1" of threads for lug nut engagement more than enough on a 9/16" stud.
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rotors im using are 1.14" nominal thickness. the calipers im using are made for a 1.295" nominal thickness. may need a pad spacer, or it will be fine. hoping i can use a pad spacer on whatever side to help using a straight bracket, eye ball says its close but i need more parts before that step.
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idler hubs are also only about 70$ each maybe cheaper if your fine with staying with 1/2" studs on your trailer. needing 6 was enough for me to try turning them, and probably still trading dollars for time.
my bearings all look fine and clean grease, ill honestly just throw new hub seals in them for now unless i find something terrible.
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544$ for 6 rotors, 6 calipers, 3 pairs of pads, 6 brake hoses from RA shipped
thats not a bad full service cost for 3 7k axles
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5 hubs done, one more to go tomorrow. my phase converter is smelling warm lately so not really doing this in a hurry.
out of my brakes: one disconnected, 2 others FULL of grease, 3 rusted junk in pretty bad shape.
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you guys were right about stud length, i underestamated the thickness of the 19.5 steel wheels. i bolted one up and there is really only 5/8" of threads at best sticking out. might have been fine?
i needed to source 4 studs that had issues any way, and just by chance amazon had a listing for 10 packs for 16$ so i ordered 50 of them. if you havent checked out stud prices they can be shocking!
all in all if i would have known it would probably be easier to just order 6 idler hubs that have longer studs, newer bearings, new seals at 67$ each, but what fun would that be :o
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studs, brake fittings, line, clamps, hub seals ordered. RA order of calipers/rotors/pads/brake hoses also on way.
should just be left a pump to order and ill have everything.
started on cad work for bracket today.
had to do some 7th grad trig to math out the weird bolt pattern (not published anywhere i could find)
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yeah that bolt pattern is WEIRD.
I had to drill some things to re-clock mine where needed IIRC because I'm at a very nonstandard rotation to put caliper at 6 o'clock for frame + leaf spring clearance
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65 degrees on 3.864" is what I came up with. That involved trig and isosceles triangle math lol. I could add two more holes to make it clockable a bit but I think I'll just leave it with the caliper either directly Infront of or behind the axle. this is what I came up with for first shot, I'm sure it will need some tweaking once I have a caliper loose in my hand.
and ill see if i need a bend, spacers or something else with pad to rotor spacing
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best i could tell from matts buggy vertical like that is best for the bleeders also.
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Dorman 610-541 Rear 9/16-18 Serrated Wheel Stud - 0.682 In. Knurl, 2.9 In.
calipers came today. didnt get into the shop to burn a bracket out yet.
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first shot, size holes on drill press to 25/64" for 3/8" 5 bolt mounting pattern and 7/16x20 thread taps for caliper
bolted on and caliper spacing, clearance, and pad wear movement couldnt be more perfect with a flat bracket.
some times you eyeball and get lucky!
ready to print out of 3/8"
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rotors im using are 1.14" nominal thickness. the calipers im using are made for a 1.295" nominal thickness. may need a pad spacer, or it will be fine.
visually saw this today during mock up and i think it will be fine, just going to leave it.
still cant believe it just works alignment wise with the rotor i randomly picked ha
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Lucky!
Immediate thought on the thickness (the third time I read it) is that when pads wear out, it might be more likely to jam or eject the piston before getting to metal on metal
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brackets burned out of 3/8s yesterday on Wolfies table
will prep and finish them after jeeps are done this week but look good.
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holes cleaned up on drill press, threads taped 7/16 x 24, painted
got 3 hubs with rotors / calipers / pads final assembly on trailer done today in between waiting on parts.
fits awesome and all happy.
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Nice!
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It's so awesome you can fab like this . Great job!
Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk
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took advantage of sun today, all 6 hubs assembled with brakes and plumbing done to inside pump location.
1600psi pump ordered.
should be left mount pump, run some wire, bleed.
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badass. gonna put you through the windshield like you've never stopped before!
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Nice work!
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brake pump came yesterday. weather looks good Thursday for some outside shenanigans to pull a few wires and mount pump.
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finished install and bled out.
locks/stalls out truck with a squeeze of the brake controller! pump noises seem to be modulated with modulated brake controller panic button input so i think it works as it should and i should be able to lower / adjust brake gain normally.
i am excited!
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works awesome
ended up with controller set at 6/10
there is about a 1sec delay until trailer brakes start coming in but they pull HARD
noted some leakage by pump, need to investigate, but no other issues.
hardware and lug nuts were tight at 100 mile check
cool hubs, warm tires. (tires are looking like shit with lots of cracks in tread, date code 2017s i bought new before KOH)
may attempt to bleed again now that its been cycled a bit to VA and back.
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Wonderful!
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still noticing plywood under pump is soaked with brake fluid. level not really down in pump as far as i can tell (holds 1 quart)
cleaned and checked for leaks, checked all screws on pump tight and my two threaded connections at pump good.
chip clipped panic button in truck for about 3 minutes (on like 20%) and did not have any sign of leaks anywhere around pump after bleeding all 6 calipers.
got a good shot of air out of one caliper and then some bubbles out of 2 others, so that should be nothing but improvement on my 1.5 second delay im feeling to produce trailer braking effort.